Later season musings

Discussion in 'ThunderCats (1985)' started by Captain Shiner, Jun 12, 2018.

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  1. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    Just some random thoughts on the later seasons, see what you think

    1) In the Last Day, couldn't the ancient spirits of evil SEE that Mumm-Ra had the T-cats on the ropes and to just wait a bit longer? He had them beat! All Lion-O had to do was wait it out and Mumm-Ra was finished, and then to top it all off, after destroying him, they bring him back again, they absolutely lose all credibility here, not that I liked the ASOE being vocal anyway, much superior as a silent menace, Mumm-Ra's 'benefactors' of power. The Last Day is however, the superior episode made after season 1.

    2) The Circus Train...where do I start. Where does Bragg get the fuc***g right to take away all those beautiful villains? In Exile Isle, they go to lengths to give the Lunataks a 'fair trial' (not that that exile meant anything as they just came back, more on that in a sec) yet Bragg can just remove them...by hypnotizing a young boy duplicitously...nothing wrong with that at all. He should be in the Circus Train himself! The mans a clown. How DARE he remove the Mutants. I don't care about the Lunataks. But the Mutants, all leaders of their kind on Plun-Darr, all have given stalwart service to the show, all four of them part of the lasting appeal of the show to this very day! It's an INSULT and an AFFRONT to remove them in this fashion. A Mandora arrest and removal to the Grey Prison Planet would have been right and fair.

    3) The Jade Dragon...Hachiman...Now, does he live in another Dimension, another time, another Planet or all of them? Whatever it is, his interplanetary travelling methods are contradictory, he needs a metal horse to go to New Thundera, but seems to be able to walk to Third Earth alone in Hachimans Honor. They make a point of his leaving the Thundercutter behind as if he would solve any issues without it, but he just summons it in the same way Lion-O summons his sword...pretty pointless.

    4) Chain of Loyalty, I don't need to go over this, the Code of Thundera is reduced to absolute rubble by the notion that if this bracelet is broken, the Thundercats become hateful, spiteful nasties....I mean, what the HELL!!! Snarf 'Mumm-Ra' Egbert was hilarious in this though, I prefer him to Osbert infinitely

    5) Bracelet of Power - Snarf, part of a species, according to Jaga 'The Wise', that are incapable of evil, yet here Snarf is, more than happy to wear a bracelet that gives him the right to have power over the people that have protected him, that he implies that he's been no more of a slave to all these years when in truth, Lion-O is sick to death of his mollycoddling.

    6) The Totem of Dera - This is a really really good episode, heavy involvement from the Mutants, sans s-s-slithe which is all too rare, good involvement from Wily-Kit which who is so much better when parted from her idiot brother, I loved her defence over the fallen Lion-O. Also, great work from Snarfer too, who is much more superior to Snarf in basically every way. The classic soft music when Jaga appears and sees an unconscious Lion-O is particularly moving

    7) The Thunderscope - Another excellent episode here, with probably the starkest moment, when Mumm-Ra appears to have killed Lion-O and finally beaten the Thundercats, Mumm-Ra, whose character would be sanitized irreparably in upcoming episodes, has one last stand here where he is truly bad-ass

    8) Hair of The Dog...why would the ASOE turn Snarf into Snarf-Ra, they are aware he isn't an evil being, they must know that he intends to thwart their employee Mumm-Ra in destroying the T-Cats, their sole objective? Bizarre.

    9) Right, so Exile Isle, notwithstanding the Thundercats, despite not being indigenous to third earth and relative newcomers at that, having the right to appoint themselves judge and jury by exiling the Lunataks (why have they never just 'exiled' the Mutants and Mumm-Ra before this? Because they didn't have Lynx-O to look all wizened in his seat like he's actually Jaga?), and ignoring most of the ludicrosity on Exile Isle itself, which we can just put down to Overgard and Lawrence smoking crack one night. The one bugbear I have is that a neat subplot of Season 3 is the Lunataks inability to make Skytomb spaceworthy, yet somehow they are able to make Cracker's old shack into a Spaceship and fly back to Third Earth on it! With their crimes deemed worthy of exile forgotten and they can stay. They are then seen using Skytomb again after this, but then living out of the shack again by the time of the Circus Train...so dumb...which leads me onto...

    10) Crackers Revenge, in the bottom 3 worst episodes of the series, with Overgard doing his utmost to torture viewers with mind bogglingly crap plots. Cracker is such a pi** poor character with no lasting appeal whatsoever and keep getting brought back! If the Lunataks took his living quarters away in Exile Isle, then how the hell did he get off the place? Where did he get that metal box thing from and how did he locate Bragg and the Lunataks. His 'bold' revenge plan is not to harm the Thundercats who foiled his plans in the past, chiefly Lion-O, but to plunder an abandoned third earth, and not to have a pop at Tygra who he's had a past encounter with, but Pumyra who he's never met. How is that 'revenge'? Pumyra is only briefly seen for less than ten seconds in Cats Lair, but is not allowed outside to have a catch up with Lion-O. Also, in Return to Thundera Part 4, Bragg appears to have dropped the Lunataks off at WayOutBack but retained the Mutants, but in this episode, the Mutants aren't there but the Lunataks are, does Bragg just swap them over and take them out for day trips in space on his crappy train! If Overgard has to revisit one of his old characters then make this 'Shiners Revenge', with Captain Shiner being someone - after being sent into deep space by Tygra and Cheetara - who actually has a reason to gain revenge and in his Vertas spaceship, stumbles upon the Circus Train and frees the Lunataks, permanently, and they go to New Thundera, not third earth.

    11) Return To Thundera...So, Lion-O wants to go back home, but he's allowed to pick and choose which of his fellow countrymen are permitted to do the same? Tygra, someone who has nurtured and cared for Lion-O since his youth is told no he can't come home, he has to stay alone in the Tower of Omens, not Cats Lair where he has lived all this time, but the Tower of Omens, and Pumyra, forced to be parted from her friends Bengali and Lynx-o with whom she has been through so much with, and has to stay in the vast Cats Lair on her own when she has lived in the Tower of Omens all this time. The Tower of Omens was only needed to keep an eye of Darkside, if there are no Lunataks then no need for the Tower of Omens at all, they could have just levelled that like they levelled Mumm-Ra's Pyramid, but there again, it was destroyed by Mumm-Ra in the Last Day, absolutely no need for a rebuild at all, and quite frankly, there is no need for any Thundercat presence on Third Earth at all, the trouble only began when they arrived! Mumm-Ra kept himself to himself before that, and there are no more Mutants or Lunataks, I'm sure the 'league of Third Earth' can take it from here. But if they feel they need to stay, then Pumyra and Tygra could have stayed on Third Earth together in Cats Lair, followed by alternate pairings throughout the series, because Peter Lawrence, not everyone finds those two characters as superfluous as you, Tygra especially is an essential part of the show, why he is considered unworthy to remain yet the kittens and Snarf can is again, another insult. Tygra designed Third Earth's Cat's Lair with an extended location search early in the series, but they don't need him to design the new cats lair? And they get Snarfs to build it in about 4 hours? While i'm here, they never thought to update the opening credits at this point even though the series has a whole new look, it features Tygra and the Mutants, but not Lynx-O or Bengali, I would be confused by this if I was a kid watching it. The only high point for me in this 5 parter (other than the inspired 'evil' Jaga) is the return of the Mutants, it really feels here as if Lawrence has realised the error of his ways and has brought them back to give the Thundercats on Third Earth a reason to be there. So it's especially awful to see them put in that sodding train again. Vultureman certainly, I feel would be too cunning to allow himself to be recaptured again

    12) Leah - What a cracking episode this is, and what a fascinating idea the Mirror Wraith is, by some distance, the best season 4 episode. Shame they couldn't keep up this quality

    13) The Mossland Monster - I have no probems with the actual episode, there are some good ideas here, but there are some issues, namely, the patronising tone in which Cheetara tells Tygra to get the Feliner back quickly so they can go back home, Tygra has been effectively exiled from his own planet, and has been 'allowed' to return there on the proviso that he has a quick catch up and then comes back so the three of them can get back pronto, also, Cheetara gets the kittens for company but Tygra gets no-one? Secondly, Tygra (arguably the wisest of the living Tcats (unless he's in one of his addictive phases) quoted as being both 'lord protector' and second in line to Lion-O in the chain of command), blatantly ignoring the advice from Panthro about the asteroid storm and going through it just to save time, that's behaviour you'd have expected out of Wily-Kat, not Tygra, seeing his head bowed apology at the end was just sad....plus, Tygra wasn't even involved in defeating the monster...what a character burial!
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  2. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    Other bugbears

    - Bengali continually forced to stay on Third Earth to keep guard. Why him? He's pretty handy with a hammer
    - Sword of Omens solving every problem known to man, why doesn't Lion-o just use it immediately when there's an issue, no point in flanneling about trying other stuff.
    - The Hovercat appearing on New Thundera, when it was left behind on Third Earth
    - Grune doesn't appear to be a ghost in Return to Thundera...
    - Just the general idea that when the planet 'reformed' the inhabitants are just alive again, people like Jaguara, Charr, Frogman etc, they should have been wiped out when the planet EXPLODED. Plus it was made very clear in Exodus that the Tcats were the SOLE survivors of Thundera, yet there are seemingly hundreds of survivors who have been aimlessly floating about in space all this time.

    I'm sure I had more to say but I can't think now. I'll be interested in your thoughts on the above

    In closing, I have 6 episodes left to watch in this run, at which point, I'll both have some further thoughts to add, and I'll probably bow out as a regular poster here, can I just say it has been a pleasure to spend the last 6 weeks posting with you guys, I've really enjoyed the conversations I've had about the greatest cartoon ever made. I'll still lurk about and make some posts occasionally. Also, I intend to watch the 2011 series for the first time so may have some thoughts on those too

    Cheers
     
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  3. Mark M

    Mark M Thunderian Legend

    There is actually some threads on here we did re-watching the 2011 series.
    It would be interesting hearing your thoughts on the 2011 series.
     
  4. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    Agree with all your points, Captain. In fact, most of them have been overly discussed here somewhere or another, and many of them more than once LOL.
    • Chain of Loyalty and Bracelet of Powers, two episodes that go against the series concept and the TCs nature.
    • The Circus Train, what an insult to the TCs intellect and effort. So what they didn't get to manage in over 3 years, an old man does in one day? I'd have left WilyKat in a jail for once LOL.
    • Never was a real fan of Hachiman or Mandora, so I'll it just as you said.
    • The worst of course was Return to Thundera and the whoe Pumyra and Tygra being left behind thing. Yes, why they? If annyoe, leave the 3 new TCs together, don't split all groups. And why permanently? Why not trying a rotating system in which two of them go to Third Earth every week and check on it? There was no need for them to stay at all (even more given that they could fly from New Thundera to Tird Earth in less than two nanoseconds or something for the matter if it was requiered). Why was Lion-O craving for a return so badly? It was a whole new different planet after all! Formed under the ifluence of the Moons of Plun-Darr... it was not the planet he *barely* grew up in. And why to rebuild the Tower of Omens at all? At least Tygra and Pumyra could have stayed together at the Lair... that thing was pretty big for 7 TCs to make maintenance work, can't imagine just one of them doing it. And besides maintenance work, who cleans, cooks, patrols, etc?
    • Mossland Monster, a compelte lack of respect for Tygra. If you're bringing him back, at least make it in a high note. Yes, Cheetara was kind of selfish... "Get back soon! We have to keep enjoying our time there and you have to get lonely and bored again here!" I wonder if the kittens stayed with him for a while at his return. And he should have been the one defeating the monster, IMO.
    Another thoughts for the 2nd season and on:
    • The whole Thundera rebuilt... it was not Thundera as they knew it! Why feeling attached to it? It's like someone destroying your house where you have lived all your life, then someone comes and build a whole new different house with the bricks from your former house. Just beasue they're the same bricks, it doesn't make it the house you grew up to know and love. And where did all those refugees show up from?
    • Bengali, what a waste of character and screen time. I never liked him and just found him a poor replacemnt with Tygra, even more when combining him with Lynx-O (but I liked Lynx-O). They didn't know what to do with Tygra, but they needed a tiger in a cats' show, so bring a new tiger (thank God nature providded white tigers so they could use that LOL), and bring a new "intellectual/smart" character to take away Tygra's more disitnctive trait.
    • The Lunataks, not the menace they were supposed to be. I oly liked about them that they introduced some female villains. But I think it'd have been better if they got Ratar-O back with some new Mutants, even a female if you want to. Like a rhinoceros, a hyena (female) and maybe a zebra or a bear.
    • Snarfer and that stupid robot dog the kittens got from Panthro (which was soon left behind by the wirters).
    • The thunderscope and Jagara... was she even catish some way?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  5. Daremonger

    Daremonger Thunderian Legend

    I appreciate the post that Captain Shiner has offered here. A show like ThunderCats can have so much potential when put in the right hands. When it's put in the wrong hands, everything goes south.
     
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  6. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    Thanks for your response Tygra, I've just realised how ranty my post was. But I do really feel that liberties were taken in the seasons after the first that harmed the quality. There is such a severe drop in my view. I'd say there are only about 10-12 really good episodes following season 1.

    Mind you, I saw the Shadowmaster last night, that's a really good episode that would have benefitted from a 2 parter, the reintroduction of Claud-us after so long was too monumental to do in a single episode I think, but it was really strong stuff. I get the feeling that not doing Tygra freed up Peter Newman to do a lot of other voices as he's done Shadowmaster and Amortus in successive episodes. Why didn't they give Preis more to do?

    Just Zaxx Factor (assuredly the best episode title in the series?), Well of Doubt and Book of Omens left. 130 episodes in 6 weeks.
     
  7. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    But Newman not only made Tygra, he also did WilyKat, Bengali and Monkian. He was already freed from Monkian, and if the new TCs stayed rather than Tygra and Pumyra, he'd have had time to make Tygra. Not a valid reason IMO.
     
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  8. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    Did he do the voice of Zaxx? That hilarious New York accent??
     
  9. Daremonger

    Daremonger Thunderian Legend

    Larry Kenney actually voiced Zaxx.
     
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  10. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    Brilliant, such a ridiculous character, having a pop at Vultureman's appearence when he looks like his older brother.
     
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  11. Daremonger

    Daremonger Thunderian Legend

  12. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    The show took a nosedive in quality after season 1.

    In broad terms:
    Season 2 - problem: Lunataks, but at least that's just a matter of taste.
    Season 3 - problem: New Thundera. Planets don't suddenly fit back together after exploding, not only that, what about the bit of Thundera that crashed on Third Earth in "Lord Of The Snows"? Then again, accurate science was never this show's strong point, given how many times the characters are seen breathing in space...
    Season 4 - problem: Just leaving Third Earth and resettling on New Thundera. All those refugees that were killed in the very first episode of the series, suddenly they're alive again? Where did they all spring from? Plus why leave two characters behind on a virtually permanent basis? Why not show some rotation of who's keeping an eye on Third Earth? Have every character seen to be taking their turn there? Seriously, there's only about one properly good episode in this whole season, and that's "Shadowmaster".
     
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  13. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    Also, the whole Lion-O being homesick about... what exactly? A planet he lived in for 8 years and has memory of about 5? And it was not his planet as he knew him anyway, least of all as it reformed under the influence of the moons of Plun-Darr... WHAT? If it was under the influence of the moons of Plun-Darr, then it must have been really near Plun-Darr... how did we never get to see any Mutants trying to colonize it as well?

    If it was for new settings, there was a lot to explore in Third Earth; there's no reason why they couldn't have had all those New Thudnera places on Third Earth. All those refugees that were killed and then suddenly showed up from where? Have they been living in floating meteorites? In space ships? And how did Jagara manage to survive if she was supposed to be at the very center of the planet when it exploded?

    The Lunataks, yeah, it's a mater of taste. I insist in that it'd have been better to have Ratar-O getting back to Third Earth with a couple of new Mutants.

    Another thing that was out of palce is Ma-Mutt...

    IMO, the Feliner should have never existed. It gave the TCs the chance to get on space and made some unralistic episodes (some good ones like "Swotrd in a Hole", but they could have given it a twist in Third Earth).
     
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  14. Daremonger

    Daremonger Thunderian Legend

    I actually like the Feliner. For me, it made a good secondary vehicle in mid-season one. There was one episode where Lion-O used the Sword of Omens to guide the Feliner to safety. The sword didn't fix the Feliner; it just guided her to safety.
     
  15. Mark M

    Mark M Thunderian Legend

    I dislike the concept of the planet reforming. That was just really lazy writing and made very little sense with Jaguara etc.
    As for the refugees I don't have a problem with the Thundarian refugees. I just like to think that not all of the ships were in the convoy that was attacked by the mutants. Like those other ships were a lot smaller than the flagship. Yet the flagship only carried eight people....Why did it not have more of the royal guards etc?
    I really disliked the Lunataks characters.
    I would far rather had had Ratar-O be the main villain returning with an army of new Mutant characters.
     
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  16. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    We should definitely have seen more of Ratar-O.

    The planet re-forming wasn't so much lazy writing as a stupid and unnecessary idea.
     
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  17. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    I’m glad Liam, that you agree with me about the Lunataks, they were awful. Ok so the mutants were no match for the Tcats but at least they came up with loads of entertaining schemes to defeat them. The Lunataks has this massive entrance to the show each armed with a unique special power, but they are so monumentally stupid and constantly bickering, how could they have ever been feared!
     
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  18. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    The Mutants might no have been match for the TCs because they were outnumbered since "Exodus" (ok, you might say there were much more Mutants in the first eps -which disappeared nobody knows how- but they rarely got into battle). Just imagine if Ratar-O got back with 2/3 more Mutants, then there would have been like 7/8 Mutants to fight 9 TCs (8 if you consider the kittens as one... 7 if they never introduced Benagli LOL).
     
  19. Captain Shiner

    Captain Shiner Moleman

    I think you could say in season 1 that it was 4 v 4 if you don’t count the kittens, or take Snarf seriously
     
  20. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    They should have just added in more mutants on a regular basis.
     
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