Let's sort out a continuity order for season 1

Discussion in 'ThunderCats (1985)' started by LiamABC, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    OK, this is what I was talking about yesterday. I'm pretty sure if we all get our brains in gear on this, we can hammer out a definitive order for season 1 that takes all continuity points into account. Obviously some are obvious (the first six episodes are set in stone, Annointment and Feliner are both continuous stories), and others can be deduced (Mechanical Plague has to come after Return To Thundera, Turmagar The Tuska and Return Of The Driller, for instance).

    I've got a pretty cast-iron order for about the first 21 episodes:

    1. Exodus
    2. The Unholy Alliance
    3. Berbils
    4. The Slaves Of Castle Plun-Darr
    5. Trouble With Time
    6. Pumm-Ra

    - these are the establishing episodes, straightforward enough. Then the next three are also as standard:

    7. The Terror Of Hammerhand
    8. The Tower Of Traps (explains Tygra and the Kittens absence from previous ep)
    9. The Garden Of Delights (Mutants still without technology)

    But the next twelve, I've made some changes:

    10. Spitting Image (a Thundercat gone bad is unheard of in this episode)
    11. The Doom-Gaze (Mutants still untechnologised)
    12. The Ghost Warrior (has to come after Spitting Image for above reason)
    13. The Spaceship Beneath The Sands (introduces Mutant tech)
    14. The Time Capsule (introduces spaceboards)
    15. Safari Joe
    16. The Fireballs Of Plun-Darr (Tygra swimming)
    17. Mandora: The Evil Chaser (need a Mutantless episode here)
    18. Return To Thundera (time capsule seen again, Castle Plun-Darr has been rebuilt)
    19. The Thunder-Cutter (Monkian's comments about the Sword's power follow on naturally; Warrior Maidens)
    20. Lord Of The Snows
    21. All The Glitters (must follow immediately)

    If anyone has any further ideas, come on, let's get it done!
     
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  2. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    I don't get what do you mean by saying that Tower of Traps will explain Tygra and the kittens' absence from Terror of Hammerhand. The kittens were not with Tygra in Tower of Traps. Am I missing somehting there?
     
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  3. Lady Ocelli

    Lady Ocelli Shadowspy

    Kit and Kat were on a scouting mission for Tygra and that led them to the Tower.
     
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  4. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    Yes. But Tygra was absent in "Terror of Hammerhand", but he was with Panthro and Cheetara in "Tower of Traps". So, if the kittens were with him in ToH, why were they alone and Tygra with the others in ToT?
     
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  5. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    At the start of ToT, Wikykat says, "Tygra wants these maps to be precise". Therefore, we can conclude that while ToH was taking place, Tygra took the kittens aside and explained what he wanted them to do, and that's why they weren't in that episode.
     
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  6. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    That makes sense, could be. Or maybe he stayed at Cats Lair working on the maps. But that would be weird as, being a TC, he should have left everything aside when he saw the signal in order to help Lion-o, I think.
     
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  7. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    You could say the same about Tygra and Cheetara in "The Unholy Alliance" and "The Crystal Queen" (also the kittens in that one, and every episode in which they don't appear).

    But basically, the whole map mission, Tygra went through it with the kittens during The Terror Of Hammerhand, and by the start of The Tower Of Traps, they are now actually on the mission.

    But this is beside the point - can we all get our heads together to help draw up a PERFECT ORDER for season 1 taking all continuity points into account?

    Here's a few more pointers:

    "Return Of The Driller" and "Divide And Conquer" both refer to locations specifically introduced during the Annointment Trials, so both must come after that 5-parter.

    "Mumm-Rana" should probably come after "The Transfer", because in the latter ep, Mumm-Ra states there is one being that would survive the explosion, but as Mumm-Rana is meant to be Mumm-Ra's equal and opposite, if he would survive, so would she, so that suggests she can't have been discovered at this point.
     
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  8. Lady Ocelli

    Lady Ocelli Shadowspy

    I agree that the Trials should be considered after "Lord of the Snows".
     
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  9. Dr_SLUMP

    Dr_SLUMP Berserker

    This list should go on, I like it! By the way, adding character appearances (with the first ones in bold) would be great.
     
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  10. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    I think the trials are a mid-season arc, like a cliffhanger arc. Given that the first season had 65 eps, and taking aside the first 5 eps which were supposed to be an arc as well, I think the trials should be eps 25 to 30, or 30 to 35... from then we can go backward and forward.
     
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  11. thezaxfactor

    thezaxfactor Staff Writer and Moderator TC.org Staff

    Good idea! Because of how and when the Trials were produced, the Trial of Evil features certain characters at Lion-O's coronation that do not appear until later in the season. Notably, Dr. Dometone, both Unicorn Keepers and Snarf's bat friend, QuickPick, Mule, and Hachiman and the Ninja (!). This means that the Trials need to take place AFTER:

    Snarf Takes up the Challenge
    Mandora and the Pirates (because QuickPick has been granted his reprieve)
    Safari Joe (which is fine, given its new placement)
    Dr. Dometone
    The Thunder-Cutter

    As alluded to by LiamABC, Acid Lake and the Vortex are introduced in the Trial of Strength, which means that the Trials need to take place BEFORE "Return of the Driller" and "Divide and Conquer". Likewise, Lion-O seems surprised to encounter the Whirlpool of Infinity in the Trial of Speed, which is also featured by name in "Return of the Driller".

    Sadly, Mumm-Ra's supposed defeat in the Trial of Evil is never really addressed in subsequent episodes. If we can think of an episode where the Cats are legitimately surprised to see him, then that would be a good episode to follow the Trials. Sadly, I don't think there is one. Retcon fail. :(

    Are there any other places or characters introduced in the Trials that we need to worry about?
     
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  12. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    So, I guess so far we can say it goes something like this (the ones in bolds indicate it might be not the exact position, but nearby):

    1. Exodus
    2. The Unholy Alliance
    3. Berbils
    4. The Slaves Of Castle Plun-Darr
    5. Trouble With Time
    6. Pumm-Ra
    7. The Terror Of Hammerhand
    8. The Tower Of Traps (explains Tygra and the Kittens absence from previous ep)
    9. The Garden Of Delights (Mutants still without technology)
    10. Spitting Image (a Thundercat gone bad is unheard of in this episode)
    11. The Doom-Gaze (Mutants still untechnologised)
    12. The Ghost Warrior (has to come after Spitting Image for above reason)
    13. The Spaceship Beneath The Sands (introduces Mutant tech)
    14. The Time Capsule (introduces spaceboards)
    15. Safari Joe
    16. The Fireballs Of Plun-Darr (Tygra swimming)
    17. Mandora: The Evil Chaser (need a Mutantless episode here)
    18. Return To Thundera (time capsule seen again, Castle Plun-Darr has been rebuilt)
    19. The Thunder-Cutter (Monkian's comments about the Sword's power follow on naturally; Warrior Maidens)
    20. Lord Of The Snows
    21. All The Glitters (must follow immediately)
    22 Lord of Snows
    23 Snarf takes Up the Challenge
    24 Mandora and the Pirates
    25 Safari Joe
    26 Dr Dometome
    27 The Thudercutter
    28
    29
    30
    31 Trial of Strength
    32 Trial of Speed
    33 Trial of Cunning
    34 Trial of Mind Power
    35 Trial of Evil
    36 Return of the Driller
    37 Divide and Conquer
    38
    39
    40
    41
    42
    43
    44
    45
    46
    47
    48
    49
    50
    51
    52
    53
    54
    55
    56
    57
    58
    59
    60
    61
    62 The Transfer
    63 Mumm-Rana
    64
    65 Fond Memories (I think this is the last one)

    I think "Trouble with Time" might come after "Pumm-Ra" where Mumm-Ra introduces himself (after "Unholy Alliance", of course).

    "Dimension Doom" must come after "Sixth Sense".

    Also, we can think of Vultureman's introduction in the series as another pivot point, but I can't remember in which ep he was seen for the first time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  13. The Living Ooze

    The Living Ooze Junior Member

    I thought about this kind of thing while watching "The Time Capsule". At the end when everyone is with the Time Capsule in the cave, WilyKit and Kat are admonished for leaving Cats' Lair, being told they were instructed to stay there because someone needed to be there. But isn't the responsibility of every ThunderCat to report to the sword's beam when Lion-O "calls" it?

    Then again, maybe it's more the case of "any ThunderCat who is not watching Cats' Lair and is free to come, come to the sword when it calls.

    Then again, lol, what about those times when all the ThunderCats answer the sword's call, and no one is watching Cats' Lair?

    More of this beloved show's plentiful inconsistencies, lol (much like Greek mythology).


    Well, both unicorn keepers are seen within the first 15 episodes (just can't remember which...I'm currently watching the DVDs). And QuickPick is seen in episode 10.



    Well, Vultureman's first two appearances are pretty unmemorable (and his voice is quite off, it's not "there" yet). Like I said I'm watching season 1 right now, and I can't even remember which one he first appears in (possibly "The Doomgaze"?); Slythe mentions Vultureman working on something, and he's only seen quite briefly. But in his 2nd appearance, he's with Slythe in "Return to Thundera" when they're trying to get the robot blueprint plans back in time. But yeah, his first two appearances are practically "throw-away cameos".
     
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  14. LiamABC

    LiamABC Thunderian Legend

    You've made a couple of mistakes here:

    "Trouble With Time" comes BEFORE "Pumm-Ra" for two reasons:
    - Lion-O driving the Thundertank for the first time in TWT, in Pumm-Ra he's described has having taken to it "like a fish to water".
    - They first go looking for Thundrillium in TWT, while in Pumm-Ra Panthro says there's work to do in the Thundrillium fields.

    Then you've put Lord Of The Snows and Safari Joe up there twice - I'd already put them in. LOTS is followed immediately by ATG, ( because of the Thundrillium meteor). Safari Joe, I moved forward to straight after The Time Capsule

    If nobody has any objections, I think "Eye Of The Beholder" should be episode 64 (obviously Fond Memories is no65, but EOTB also has a finale feel to it, and ought to be the last regular episode before that, so no64).

    Obviously "Feliner" must come after "Mandora And The Pirates", in which Lion-O says they don't have any spacecraft, and I'd also put "Dr Dometone" after it as well, because it references Mandora as a properly established character.

    Also, any episodes featuring or referring to the Feliner must come after its eponymous two-parter. In no particular order, these are:

    Sword In A Hole
    The Transfer
    Mumm-Rana
    Tight Squeeze
    Trapped
    Good And Ugly

    I'd also be inclined to include "The Mountain" and "The Superpower Potion" in this list because of the otherwise unexplained absence of Cheetara (and the kittens) - presumably Lynne Lipton couldn't make it to the recording of those two episodes and had to be written out.

    I think "The Mountain" should be immediately preceded by at least two episodes in which the Mutants don't appear at all (as Mumm-Ra suggests they haven't been doing much to stop the Thundercats recently).
    Merged Post:
    He's not in "The Doom-Gaze". Vultureman's first three appearances (with the different voice) are "Return To Thundera", "Lord Of The Snows" and "Snarf Takes Up The Challenge". I'd be inclined to have RTT as his first appearance. Certainly "Lord Of The Snows" belongs after "The Spaceship Beneath The Sands" because how else could they have got in touch with him?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  15. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    This inconsistency was among the ones that always bothered me the most because I really never understood why in some ocassions everyone answered the call while in others it didn't seem necessary. Unless they were on a space missions (and even yet we've seen the TCs flying back home from there when the Eye was in the sky), they all should report because it's not like they know forehand how big the threat Lion-o is facing is.

    Same with Tight Squeeze... wouldn't it have been better and wiser from Lion-o to send the signal out to the space and summon Tygra and the kittens?
     
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  16. The Living Ooze

    The Living Ooze Junior Member

    Ah, then his first appearance must be "Lord of the Snows", because I know while watching my DVDs yesterday that RTT was his 2nd appearance, still with the "off" voice (I'm watching the astral episode right now and it's finally his regular ol' Vultureman voice). We'll have to check LOTS to make sure, but I do remember he one utterly forgettable appearance before RTT.
     
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  17. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    Ok, you're right about Trouble with Time :thumbsup:

    About Safari Joe and Lord of the Snow... my bad.

    Unless that's another inconsistency and Vulutureman was supposed to have been always there. I refuse to believe it myself, but we don't know with those writers lol.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  18. thezaxfactor

    thezaxfactor Staff Writer and Moderator TC.org Staff

    Why?

    Whoops, you're right—we meet the husband in "Terror of Hammerhand". Sorry. But Snarf's bat friend is at the coronation also, so "Snarf Takes Up the Challenge" still needs to take place first.

    As for QuickPick, he is seen earlier, but he is imprisoned immediately afterward. It's not until he aids Lion-O and Mandora in "Mandora and the Pirates" that Mandora mentions her desire to have him paroled into her custody. Notably, they are standing next to each other at the coronation.

    New thoughts

    I had always connected the lack of thundrillium in "Lord of the Snows" with Grune's draining of their tanks in "The Ghost Warrior". Look at the gauges! In production order, they followed each other directly, so maybe I'm biased by that. But I do think it's a nice explanation of why they're suddenly so low on thundrillium. I doubt they would have let their supply get so low—they're not negligent types. Could we move "The Ghost Warrior" down to right before "Lord of the Snows"?

    The only conflict this raises is the introduction of Thundranium—so we have to move "Safari Joe" to after "Lord of the Snows" and "All the Glitters". Because we've coupled "Safari Joe" with "Fireballs of Plun-Darr", this screws up the timing of Castle Plun-Darr's explosion. If we could uncouple "Safari Joe" from "Fireballs of Plun-Darr", then we'd be okay. After all, Mule does say that "except when he's invisible, Tygra cannot swim." This is not refuted in "Fireballs".

    Another nitpick. I would rather see "Return to Thundera" immediately follow "The Time Capsule"—why would they wait so long to use it, and why would Lion-O still feel so pumped and entitled from the Caveman wrastlin' if a bunch of time had passed?

    The reason the Mutants contact Vultureman in "Lord of the Snows" is so that he can transport them in his Flying Machine. Since their mode of contact presumably depends on the technology they recovered in SBTS, then why would they not also have access to their superweapons (the Skycutters and Nosediver) and transport themselves? If they can contact him, they have tech. If they have tech, why can't they fly there without him?

    The only logical answer is that, at the time of "Lord of the Snows", (the majority of) their superweapons need to be out of commission. The Nosediver and both Skycutters are damaged in SBTS, but the Nosediver reappears in "Fireballs of Plun-Darr". Notably, the Castle's moat is full of nasty creatures in "Lord of the Snows". This was not the case in "Fireballs", and might suggest a stopgap defense while they're in the process of rebuilding. It would also explain why it's muddy rather than clear—the explosion screwed up the filtration (cf. Tygra's intake pipe).

    So, may I suggest the following reordering, that moves the explosion at Castle Plun-Darr up in time to shortly after the recovery of Mutants' technology, groups "The Ghost Warrior" with "Lord of the Snows" and "All That Glitters", groups "The Time Capsule" with "Return to Thundera", and bumps "Safari Joe" down the list:

    1. Exodus
    2. The Unholy Alliance
    3. Berbils
    4. The Slaves Of Castle Plun-Darr
    5. Trouble With Time
    6. Pumm-Ra
    7. The Terror Of Hammerhand
    8. The Tower Of Traps (explains Tygra and the Kittens absence from previous ep)
    9. The Garden Of Delights (Mutants still without technology)
    10. Spitting Image (a Thundercat gone bad is unheard of in this episode)
    11. The Doom-Gaze (Mutants still untechnologised)
    12. The Spaceship Beneath The Sands (introduces Mutant tech)
    13. Mandora The Evil Chaser (need a Mutantless episode here)
    14. The Fireballs Of Plun-Darr (Nosediver rebuilt by now, Castle Plun-Darr explodes)
    15. The Ghost Warrior (has to come after Spitting Image for above reason, Mutantless again)
    16. Lord of the Snows (Thundrillium drained by Grune, Castle PlunDarr patched up, but defenses not back up to par—moat now dirty and fortified with creatures as a stopgap defense, superweapons still out of commission)
    17. All That Glitters (must follow immediately)
    18. The Time Capsule (introduces spaceboards)
    19. Return To Thundera (should follow immediately, i.e. later that evening)
    20. The Thunder-Cutter (Monkian's comments about the Sword's power follow on naturally; Warrior Maidens early warning system must follow bombardment)
    21. Mongor (production order placement—any conflicts?)
    22. Snarf Takes Up the Challenge (Castle Plun-Darr and super weapons now fully operational, cf. Vultureman’s rainbow beam)
    23. Mandora and the Pirates (QuickPick free at the coronation)
    24. Safari Joe (Mule appears at the coronation)
    25. Dr. Dometome (He's at the coronation, too!)
    26 – 30. The Trials

    Return of the Driller
    Divide and Conquer
    Turmagar the Tuska (must precede "Feliner", otherwise why take the Tank?)
    Mechanical Plague

    Feliner

    Sword in a Hole
    The Transfer
    Mumm-Rana
    Tight Squeeze
    Trapped
    Good And Ugly
    The Trouble with ThunderKittens*

    64. Eye of the Beholder
    65. Fond Memories

    One other inconsistency that we should try to sort out is when other unnamed Mutants begin and cease to appear. All of the episodes that feature Mutant rabble should come after SBTS. I've placed *asterisks* next to them in my list above. "The Trouble with ThunderKittens" features the Feliner, though, so whatever drives those other Mutants away must happen late in the season.
     
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  19. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    Because, if I remember correctly, in "Dimension Doom" everybody is aware of Cheetara's sixth sense, while in "Sixth Sense" only Cheetara, Pantrho and Tygra knew about it.

    Also, I think the tials are not 26-30 but 30-35. Why? Because of a logical thing. 63 eps, taking ut the first 5 gives 30. If we follow that other seasons, mid-seasons, main events-cut or whatever you want to call them started with a five-arc eps (Mumm-Ra Lives -not counting Thundercats Ho! as it was a movie-; Thundercubs; Return to Thundera), then we can say season 1 was divided in two, with 30 eps each, so the trails might be the first 5 eps of that second part, thus making them eps 30-35.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  20. The Living Ooze

    The Living Ooze Junior Member

    Yup...I love the Unicorn Keepers :) I watched "Snarf Takes Up The Challenge" earlier today, and I forgot that the wife one (lol) fills Snarf in on how the other ThunderCats were captured...pretty cool.


    Ah! I didn't realize that, sorry. I'll be watching MATP in about 40ish minutes (I'm on "Feliner Part 1" right now lol).


    Yes! That sticks out so obviously when RTT starts...
     
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