Massive plot hole or did I miss something?

Discussion in 'ThunderCats (2011)' started by AngelCityOutlaw, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. AngelCityOutlaw

    AngelCityOutlaw New Member

    This has been bothering me. I've been over and over it and I might have just missed something about the book of omens and plot in general.

    Anyway, this has three parts to consider.

    1. Cheetara explains early on that the clerics hid the book of omens after discovering it was too much power for just one species to wield. Okay, here's the beginning of the problem. The King dispatched Panthro and Grune to find the book because he "believes it exists". Wait, Cheetara explained that the cats HAD the book at one point in history. Why is its existence even in question? How did (most of) the cats forget? The cats have recorded their history as it would seem, so it's unlikely that they would just forget that they once had this powerful artifact they wish to have back.

    2. Jaga, as head cleric, knows the book's location. So why did he not reveal it to the king? Why didn't any of the head clerics reveal its location to their king? Sure, it would make sense that he would intentionally keep it secret due to the books power and past history, but if he would have just told the king where the book was, Mumm-Ra would have never been a problem. I suppose that may be exactly WHY he didn't reveal it. Because the writers wouldn't have a story. However, Lion-O does question why Jaga wouldn't say where the book was if he knew.

    3. Here's where I think there is a real problem: Mumm-Ra.

    Mumm-Ra has been imprisoned in his sarcophagus for a very, very long time; since the animals arrived on 3rd Earth. Now, explain to me how Mumm-Ra knows that Jaga knows where the book is? How does he know the clerics tradition of passing down the location to the head cleric? It is unlikely that this fact would be written down as it is a secret. How is it, that the only guy who has been locked away for the entire history of 3rd Earth is the ONLY one who knows that Jaga knows the books location despite having been locked up for all of Thundera's history? It's like he knows Thundercat culture better than the Thundercats.

    Short version: If the cats had the book and they are the ones who hid it, why does just about everyone think the book is a myth? Also, how does Mumm-Ra know that the head cleric will know the books location despite being banished to his Tomb for all of 3rd Earth's history?

    Maybe I missed something, but I don't feel like rewatching again at the moment. After all, if you look too hard you can miss what is right in front of you.;)
     
  2. Daremonger

    Daremonger Thunderian Legend

    I haven't paid the show's plotholes any attention. :)
     
  3. Mark M

    Mark M Thunderian Legend

    I wish I could say the same.
     
  4. Rizefall

    Rizefall Swedish Meatball

    When each episode came out there was EXTENSIVE discussion about every episode many weeks after they aired.

    Now, i have not seen the show since it first ended but i'm very certain that if there were any problems we would have noticed it. In other words this just seem to be you overthinking and taking the information the wrong way.

    I'm also sure Jaga did not know exactly where it was. Remember that most of them did not believe in Tech but Jaga might be one of those who DID THINK IT EXISTED. He read the old texts which talked about flying ships (or what ever Tygra spoke about in the first episode) and the others did not.
     
  5. Gold Lion

    Gold Lion Great Void Dweller

    I believe that since the book was hidden so long ago, many weren't sure if it was a myth or real, and only Jaga knew for sure. Everyone else simply knew it as a legend. Jaga probably knew of where the book was and didn't tell anyone because he was ordered to keep that secret until the book was actually needed i.e. the coming of Mumm-Ra. The explanation Cheetara gave was likely believed to be another legend, and not really proof of the book's existence. It's likely that a lot of their history, especially from very long ago, was not well recorded or was destroyed during their dark ages or deliberately kept secret. Because everything happened so long ago (implied to be over thousands of years before the start of the series) nearly everything the cats may or may not know about their history has fallen into myth.

    The reason for the secrecy is likely because the book is key to finding the other stones and gaining ultimate power, and Leo probably wanted to make sure the stones stayed separated, even from his own people. Jaga and past head clerics believed that they needed to keep the book a secret so the cats would not use it's power irresponsibly, like Cheetara explained. Jaga might not have known for sure if Mumm-Ra was real (he probably did know about the other stones), and he probably couldn't have predicted that Grune and Panthro would have stumbled on his pyramid. Regardless, Jaga likely swore an oath to keep the book secret until it was needed, even if it meant lying to the king.

    As for Mumm-Ra, I think Grune probably filled him in on everything after they joined forces, including what he knew about Jaga. In episode 3 Grune does mention that if Jaga knew where it was Claudus wouldn't have sent him and Panthro to look for it. I think Mumm-Ra took a guess that Jaga did know, and torturing and mind-probing Jaga helped him confirm that. His words are "If he has nothing to hide, then why does he so fiercely resist my efforts to probe his mind?" It's not that Mumm-Ra knew Jaga knew the location, it's that Mumm-Ra correctly guessed that if anyone would know it would be Jaga, since Grune told him he was the head cleric and the oldest and wisest cat on Third Earth.

    So to sum it up, everything has fallen into myth and legend because things happened over a thousand years ago, because there was poor record keeping or records were destroyed, and because whoever was in charge deliberately kept things secret from the public. Jaga swore an oath to keep the book secret even from his own people, due to believing the power to be too much for any one race, and that it should only be used when it is necessary. Claudus wanting to find the book wasn't good enough reason for Jaga to reveal the location, but Mumm-Ra attacking 10 or so years later was. Jaga didn't know that not revealing the location would lead to Grune and Panthro releasing Mumm-Ra. Mumm-Ra figured out that Jaga knew something about the book because Grune probably filled him in on cat society and Jaga's role as head cleric, and Jaga was being very resistant to torture and mind probing which tipped Mumm-Ra off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  6. mcss aerocoupe

    mcss aerocoupe Moderator

    I have a bigger plothole issue. The Cats rule the land, right? Then how in 3rd Earth can they not know that technology exists? Do all the other animals hide their technology when the Cats come by?
     
  7. Mark M

    Mark M Thunderian Legend

    Wow, never thought of that.....I always hated the concept of them having no technology.
     
  8. Rizefall

    Rizefall Swedish Meatball

    I think that's explained if you just watch the show fully once again (which i will do in the coming weeks).

    Remember the planet is very big and surely far from fully populated. Just think of all the tribes there is in OUR world that live in the jungle who have no clue what TECH is cause they live seperated "from our world". It's probably the same for the Cats in this scenario. They obviously dont rule the entire planet but a small portion of it.

    Also it's not that THEY DID NOT KNOW, they just choose to NOT BELIEVE.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  9. balgus82

    balgus82 Thunderian Legend

    The cats had the book for a while, but the lizards kept attacking to get it, so they hid it. this was hundreds of years previous, so by the time we see Lion-O the book has grown to being a myth. Jaga knew where it was, but he didn't tell Claudus, because he knew Claudus wasn't the one who was supposed to find it.


    Though I agree that they should've known about Technology. While the world was big, it didn't seem like they had to travel too far to find tech. and even after they found tech they still arrived at towns that had heard of the cats and Thundera, so they couldn't have traveled THAT far.
     
  10. Tygra_Rules

    Tygra_Rules Thunderian Legend

    My theory is that Mumm-Ra was once a Cat, maybe even Head of Clerics, that made a pact with ASoE in order to get power, and as a result he was turned into how he looks nowadays (kind of when DC villains made a pact with Neron).
     
  11. Rizefall

    Rizefall Swedish Meatball

    Remember all the travel scenes that happen before they reach the sand ocean thing. They walk quite far and are very hungry as they get tricked by the food in the water.
     
  12. srebak

    srebak Laser Beast

    Is it possible that the creatures that had access to technology merely chose to keep it a secret from the Cats, out of fear of what a nation that powerful would do if they had access to it?
     
  13. balgus82

    balgus82 Thunderian Legend

    Well yeah, but that was all on foot. And at that point they hadn't even traveled farther than areas that the Cats already knew about. Lion-O knew about the Sand Sea before they left Thundera.
     
  14. PKELL

    PKELL Barbarian

    It was sort of explained that the Clerics hid secrets from the King, and the book was hidden hundreds of years ago. Even Mumm-Ra must have been something of legend to the Cats by the present time of the show.

    As for how Mumm-Ra knows Jaga knows the Book's location, after he was freed, he probably used his cauldron/magic screen do hicky, to try and find it, he discovered the Thundarian Clerics and what secrets they might have.
     
  15. Rizefall

    Rizefall Swedish Meatball

    Again how do you know? For all we know the areas they know about (being a big kingdom and all the travels Panthro had) they probably knew more about the lands then you give them credit for.

    The tv series shows you that they did travel far to get to the sand ocean and it took them so long that they had no food or water. Granted it kinda felt like they never took anything with them as they left Thundera either but the kingdom was attacked and destroyed after all.
     
  16. balgus82

    balgus82 Thunderian Legend

    We know that Lion-O knew about the Sand Sea, because he talks about the Sand Sea before they leave Thundera.
     

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